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Author Topic: Sheffield United  (Read 300889 times)

versusterminus

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Re: Sheffield United
« Reply #540 on: December 08, 2012, 03:49:36 AM »
Still doesnt excuse the behaviour.

Not saying it does - just saying that "the behaviour" may be over-stated by the rag, "quoting" a friend of the victim.

According to the Guardian it is pretty clear that it was in fact rape and if the court indeed has found it is such, which it has, then no matter personal opinion, he is guilty. Not saying the court is infallible, but according to the few facts I gathered, there's really no question on that matter.

The way people act when it comes down to rape is so unapologetic, so amazing frustrating and really shows the worst side of human behaviour. Because its a public figure that no one can probably see as doing something wrong, they go into complete denial.

I come back full circle to my first statement. I hate people.

Offline lighty

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Re: Sheffield United
« Reply #541 on: December 08, 2012, 10:33:58 AM »
Still doesnt excuse the behaviour.

Not saying it does - just saying that "the behaviour" may be over-stated by the rag, "quoting" a friend of the victim.

According to the Guardian it is pretty clear that it was in fact rape and if the court indeed has found it is such, which it has, then no matter personal opinion, he is guilty. Not saying the court is infallible, but according to the few facts I gathered, there's really no question on that matter.

The way people act when it comes down to rape is so unapologetic, so amazing frustrating and really shows the worst side of human behaviour. Because its a public figure that no one can probably see as doing something wrong, they go into complete denial.

I come back full circle to my first statement. I hate people.

I happen to hate hyperbole. 

What the rag said was that Evans "lured" the young woman back to his hotel room and assaulted her.  That is not - by evidence produced at the trial - what happened.   According to that:
Evans' rented a room at the local hotel for his friend, a player from another club - because there was no room for the man to stay at Evans' mother's home and presumably because he was making more money than the friend and could better afford to pay the hotel charge.
The friend went to a local bar, where he met the young woman - who admitted that she had been drinking prior to meeting him and continued to drink afterward.  By her admission, she regularly drank to excess, but swore that it never caused her to lose consciousness.
At that point, the story diverges.  The young woman said she didn't remember anything until she woke up the next morning.
The friend said he asked the girl back to his hotel room and she agreed to go.
The friend said he called Evans and another man to join them to continue the "party".
Evans came to the room - the third man apparently watched through a window or some nonsense - why I do not know.
Evans and the friend engaged in sex with the young woman. 

The young woman pressed charges against both men.  The prosecutor decided that there was not enough evidence to suggest that the sex with the friend was not consensual, but there was enough evidence of non-consent to charge Evans with rape.

He was convicted. 
I'm not going to beat that to death with a stick.  That was the decision that a jury of his peers decided.  I wasn't in the courtroom.  If they believe he was guilty, I accept their judgement.
Personally, I also believe the other man was equally guilty, as there is no way of knowing if the young woman actually agreed to have sex with him since she says she remember nothing; but that's not what was decided.

What I do NOT agree with is a newspaper printing a statement that is patently untrue.  Some people may be comfortable with that, arguing that since Evans was found guilty it makes no difference if the press makes crap up. 

I am not comfortable with that.

I initially used the word 'overstated' to avoid the word 'untrue' - but what they wrote was a lie.  Evans was not at the bar and did not - in ANY way - "lure" the girl back to his hotel room.  It was not "his" room and she was already in the room when he arrived.  That doesn't change what happened in the room - but to make a statement like that does change the circumstances in a way that takes Evans from a stupid young man who committed a crime, taking advantage of a very drunk or semi-conscious young woman, to a pathologically evil Svengali who set out to debauch an innocent.

Words have meaning and when a newspaper uses them for emotional effect rather than in a quest for accuracy, they are committing a far worse crime than just a turn of phrase.  If they will print a lie, what lie will they not print?  If they lie in one paragraph of a story, why should I believe that they are telling the truth in a different paragraph?

You go ahead and "hate people" - I will continue to despise the things that people do - and that includes the press.

Offline patch

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Re: Sheffield United
« Reply #542 on: December 08, 2012, 11:05:29 AM »
Meanwhile  Carlisle 1 - 3 Sheff Utd


http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/20564707

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Jingle Bells,Jingle Bells,Jingle All The Way,O' What Fun It Is To See United Win Away!!!!!

Offline lighty

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Re: Sheffield United
« Reply #543 on: December 08, 2012, 11:18:47 AM »
Meanwhile  Carlisle 1 - 3 Sheff Utd


http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/20564707

Quote
Jingle Bells,Jingle Bells,Jingle All The Way,O' What Fun It Is To See United Win Away!!!!!


A win, but our second half was a let down.  We had them over a barrel and then just let it go.  Still, a win and a chance to get back into an automatic promotion spot before Christmas.  UTB!

versusterminus

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Re: Sheffield United
« Reply #544 on: December 08, 2012, 11:57:30 AM »
Still doesnt excuse the behaviour.

Not saying it does - just saying that "the behaviour" may be over-stated by the rag, "quoting" a friend of the victim.

According to the Guardian it is pretty clear that it was in fact rape and if the court indeed has found it is such, which it has, then no matter personal opinion, he is guilty. Not saying the court is infallible, but according to the few facts I gathered, there's really no question on that matter.

The way people act when it comes down to rape is so unapologetic, so amazing frustrating and really shows the worst side of human behaviour. Because its a public figure that no one can probably see as doing something wrong, they go into complete denial.

I come back full circle to my first statement. I hate people.

I happen to hate hyperbole.  

What the rag said was that Evans "lured" the young woman back to his hotel room and assaulted her.  That is not - by evidence produced at the trial - what happened.   According to that:
Evans' rented a room at the local hotel for his friend, a player from another club - because there was no room for the man to stay at Evans' mother's home and presumably because he was making more money than the friend and could better afford to pay the hotel charge.
The friend went to a local bar, where he met the young woman - who admitted that she had been drinking prior to meeting him and continued to drink afterward.  By her admission, she regularly drank to excess, but swore that it never caused her to lose consciousness.
At that point, the story diverges.  The young woman said she didn't remember anything until she woke up the next morning.
The friend said he asked the girl back to his hotel room and she agreed to go.
The friend said he called Evans and another man to join them to continue the "party".
Evans came to the room - the third man apparently watched through a window or some nonsense - why I do not know.
Evans and the friend engaged in sex with the young woman.  

The young woman pressed charges against both men.  The prosecutor decided that there was not enough evidence to suggest that the sex with the friend was not consensual, but there was enough evidence of non-consent to charge Evans with rape.

He was convicted.  
I'm not going to beat that to death with a stick.  That was the decision that a jury of his peers decided.  I wasn't in the courtroom.  If they believe he was guilty, I accept their judgement.
Personally, I also believe the other man was equally guilty, as there is no way of knowing if the young woman actually agreed to have sex with him since she says she remember nothing; but that's not what was decided.

What I do NOT agree with is a newspaper printing a statement that is patently untrue.  Some people may be comfortable with that, arguing that since Evans was found guilty it makes no difference if the press makes crap up.  

I am not comfortable with that.

I initially used the word 'overstated' to avoid the word 'untrue' - but what they wrote was a lie.  Evans was not at the bar and did not - in ANY way - "lure" the girl back to his hotel room.  It was not "his" room and she was already in the room when he arrived.  That doesn't change what happened in the room - but to make a statement like that does change the circumstances in a way that takes Evans from a stupid young man who committed a crime, taking advantage of a very drunk or semi-conscious young woman, to a pathologically evil Svengali who set out to debauch an innocent.

Words have meaning and when a newspaper uses them for emotional effect rather than in a quest for accuracy, they are committing a far worse crime than just a turn of phrase.  If they will print a lie, what lie will they not print?  If they lie in one paragraph of a story, why should I believe that they are telling the truth in a different paragraph?

You go ahead and "hate people" - I will continue to despise the things that people do - and that includes the press.


So you differentiate between what people do and people as people? Sort of a positivist view. I believe there is much conflation between people as people and their actions. I dont hate people. I hate what people do, but I see little divergence between the two.

No doubt the press prints lies. I would never condone it. The rag surely had a different angle than the latter article in the Guardian.

But my initial concern was with the poor girl and the fact that none of the men should have had sex with her. Under any circumstance. They both took advantage of her and should accordingly be jailed. But that was not my point either.

My point was that a) a girl had been raped which in itself is beyond detestable. But also that b) the community has now (which is quite common when it comes to rape ("he's such a good guy, really" is the worst rape apology ever) but not to this extent in this cultural context) gone on some sort of frickin' witch-hunt.

I dont argue that the rag probably (as I, nor anyone but the three involved knows exactly what happened) printed some more fictional accounts but for the story as a whole, in the larger context, it does not alter my main concern or my view of it.

« Last Edit: December 08, 2012, 11:59:30 AM by versusterminus »

Offline lighty

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Re: Sheffield United
« Reply #545 on: December 08, 2012, 12:19:12 PM »
Okay.
(Sorry - way too much end of term grading to accomplish to indulge in another one of our philosophical debates!)

versusterminus

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Re: Sheffield United
« Reply #546 on: December 09, 2012, 01:54:40 AM »
Coincidentally, my end of term studying is why I'm here in the first place. Enjoying the break.

Offline lighty

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Re: Sheffield United
« Reply #547 on: December 09, 2012, 12:24:22 PM »
Coincidentally, my end of term studying is why I'm here in the first place. Enjoying the break.

I do understand that!  Good luck with your final papers and exams. :)

versusterminus

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Re: Sheffield United
« Reply #548 on: December 09, 2012, 01:22:12 PM »
Coincidentally, my end of term studying is why I'm here in the first place. Enjoying the break.

I do understand that!  Good luck with your final papers and exams. :)


Thanks! Our term doesnt end until mid-January though so its studying all through Christmas.

Offline najinboulder

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Re: Sheffield United
« Reply #549 on: December 09, 2012, 07:13:33 PM »
I am sure you will do better on your tests than the Blades have been playing lately.

versusterminus

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Re: Sheffield United
« Reply #550 on: December 10, 2012, 12:58:30 AM »
That shouldn't be a challenge.

Offline lighty

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Re: Sheffield United
« Reply #551 on: December 10, 2012, 01:11:22 AM »
That shouldn't be a challenge.

Hey!  Watch your mouth, missy!!

 :phbbbt
I am sure you will do better on your tests than the Blades have been playing lately.

Both of you!!
 :claws

 :catlaff

Offline patch

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Re: Sheffield United
« Reply #552 on: December 15, 2012, 11:01:29 AM »
Sheff Utd 0-0 Tranmere

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/20650260

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So this is Christmas, What have we done? Another year older, Still in League One

Offline lighty

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Re: Sheffield United
« Reply #553 on: December 15, 2012, 12:20:06 PM »
Sheff Utd 0-0 Tranmere

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/20650260

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So this is Christmas, What have we done? Another year older, Still in League One

Yep.  It was a particularly uninspired match.

Offline najinboulder

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Re: Sheffield United
« Reply #554 on: December 15, 2012, 03:15:29 PM »
Get saying Lightly.  Perhaps we should make up some Blade T Shirts with that quote and see if we can cash in?

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Re: Sheffield United
« Reply #555 on: December 22, 2012, 10:56:14 AM »

Offline lighty

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Re: Sheffield United
« Reply #556 on: December 22, 2012, 12:03:38 PM »
Looking forward to seeing the highlight reel on this one - McMahon punched in two long free kicks for the three points.  Top of the table - for Christmas, anyway!

UTB!

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Re: Sheffield United
« Reply #557 on: December 26, 2012, 11:00:32 AM »

Offline najinboulder

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Re: Sheffield United
« Reply #558 on: December 26, 2012, 11:20:13 AM »
 :thumbsup:  What a great Christmas Present.  Go Blades, into the New Year winning.

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Re: Sheffield United
« Reply #559 on: December 26, 2012, 11:33:20 AM »
They did good.  Scunnie is in relegation, so they weren't playing a strong club, but it doesn't matter - they kept the three points, added two on GD, and are still top of the table (for the moment).

Only two points clear there, but as long as they hold on they'll be in good shape.  Bad news is that Shaun Miller went out with a knee (?) injury - good news is that Kitson and Blackman are on form and look healthy.  Better news is that we face Hartlepool next (poor club - last in the league, with a pitiful 9 points for the season - though that doesn't mean they can't pull one out) . . . then we face Doncaster - a derby match and they are doing very well themselves right now.

We'll see!